Archive for the ‘Elec – Charging’ Category

XS650: Charging Systems

Throughout production Yamaha basically installed the same charging technology. Rotor spun inside a battery induced magnetic field creating an AC current converted to DC by a slicone rectifier (6 diodes).

Pre 80 models had a mechanical regulator controlling voltage before the rotor.

80 on used a solid-state rectifier/regulator combi which controls voltage after the rotor.

These systems have provided reliable service for a long time now. Most problems stem from bad battery, worn rotor brushes, dirty or broken wire connections, dirty or worn ignition cylinder. If you have charging problems best fix it. Better sooner than later.

A bad battery kills a good charging system. A bad charging system kills a good battery.

Although easy to troubleshoot and repair good parts are becoming harder to find. Rewound rotors expensive and not necessarily reliable.

Earlier adaptations of later model RD350 alternators provided relief – but were still old. Advantages were instant current production and the ability to run battery-free. Today, off-the-shelf bolt-in kits are available.

In the garage are 2 bikes with PMA conversions (1 an RD350 conversion, the other from Ants – both points), 1 with total loss, and 2 with original systems (1points, 1 Boyer). One of the original chargers, 79, with mechanical regulator has decided to rebel. Battery flat after a couple of hours riding, headlight on.

I have a spare RD350 conversion boxed, in the corner. Do I put it in?

If your battery is suspect, the ignition-block, fusebox or wiring damaged or dirty – nothing you do will solve your problem. When you are absolutely positive these are ok, check them again. This is actually most of your work done.

 

What do you know about your bike? Curly rulz!!

 

Curly 2.2

 

Battery voltage: Static? (around 12.5VDC) … Active? (max. 14.5VDC @ 2000 rpm)

A quick Slap-test gives an indication how good your Regulator and Rotor are. I hang a 17mm ring spanner off a screwdriver, poition it close to the alternator cover and turn the key on. It should pull into the cover and release when the key is turned off.  The more positive it reacts the better. Mine was good.

Check voltage at your brushes. Green wire. Key on. Motor not running. It should be max. 0.3VDC less than your battery reading. Weak  voltages create weak magnetic fields. Check your wires. Battery, earth, fusebox, ignition block. No real point in going any further until you solve this. First time I had 5.4VDC. Cleaning the 6 wire connector gave me 11.5VDC. Battery earth strap both ends sanded and washed, 11.9VDC. Battery +ve, heavy end to starter solenoid. red to fusebox and ignition-block. Washing the ignition-block out with brake cleaner and cleaning the brush connection gave me the rest.

You may, now, only need new brushes. Check them. Min 7mm. The outside brush will be shorter than the inner. Its’ path each rotation is longer.

I usually remove the stator.

Gives direct access to the rotor. Meter on Ω, Ohms. Ring/Ring should be 5.0 – 5.5 Ω. Ring/Earth, infinity. Inspect for damage, discolouration. The dirtier and darker the windings the more likely the rotor is defect.

Check the stator. Damaged wiring? Discolouration? Smell? Mine was quite oily. Where did it come from? Crankseal? Cable-pass hole? Gave a quick sqiurt with brake cleaner. Unplug the 6-wire connector. White/White should be around 0.5Ω. All 3 combinations. If not disconnct the single yellow wire and repeat (tests the safety relay). White/Earth – infinite. Plug together. Motor running. Meter to VAC. White/White 10.5-11.0 VAC. Low readings indicate a grounded Stator. High readings, a bad Rectifier.

TBC: pics, rectifier and regulator tests

So, if you’re having problems with your original charging system don’t simply throw it away and get a PMA. Check it. When you find a problem keep checking – there may well be more than one issue.

For me here, once I sorted the voltage at the brushes I was fine. A quick readjustment of the regulator and all was good – didn’t even need to replace he brushes.

If you do decide to replace it, be aware that if you have electronic ignition you will need to replace that too.

Ants produces a direct swap kit for points models that i am personally very happy with. Powerdynamo also have a combi PMA/Ignition.

Advertisements

XS650: Ants’ PMA   Leave a comment

Sourced and installed the parts from an RD350LC PMA into my blue rat some years ago . Used. Old. And still good. Very happy with it.

A year or so ago I picked up a nice low mileage 77 D. Ridden a few miles every year. Complete paper record. Had some charging issues.

About this time Ants from the British XS650 forum began providing new PMA units for a good price. 200W. Complete with rec/reg, a rotor cone key that fit the original XS650 crankshaft and timing marks. (if trying the link dont be put off if you get a blank page – simply reset and it will appear – dont know why it does this but it happens to me all the time)

 

1 .. Ants’ PMA kit

 

Was pretty busy for a while and it sat. Eventually got a chance to blow the dust off and begin.

 

2 ..  Checking that the stator screws were loctited in – Yes.

Checking that the stator screws were loctited in – Yes.

 

3 ..  Sometimes this locating pin just wont come out. Easier to quickly modify the backing plate

Sometimes this locating pin just wont come out. Easier to quickly modify the backing plate

 

5 .. The pin sits at 6 o’clock so a simple line perpendicular to the horizontal gives the position

The pin sits at 6 o’clock so a simple line perpendicular to the horizontal gives the position

 

6 .. Backing plate didn’t sit properly over the crankshaft seal boss so got busy with a file. Would have been quicker to head off to the workshop and chuck it in the lathe. Naya.

Backing plate didn’t sit properly over the crankshaft seal boss so got busy with a file. Would have been quicker to head off to the workshop and chuck it in the lathe. Naya.

 

7 .. Took a little while.

Took a little while.

 

8 .. Sits perfect now.

Sits perfect now.

 

Cut-out and reshaping will be now be done during production.

 

9 ..  Phase wires held in place with a clip. Used another on the plate screw to the right just to keep clear from the chain and secured cable with a frame tie just below the rear

Phase wires held in place with a clip. Used another on the plate screw to the right just to keep clear from the chain and secured cable with a frame tie just below the rear engine mount.

 

Also removed the blue neutral indicator wire from the old loom, resheathed it in 4mm isolating sheath and reconnected to the original position. (Plug connector upper left in next pic)

 

10 .. Remove the battery to release the rectifier.

This is the original regulator. Remove it.

 

 The rectifier too. Sits under the battery box.

 

11 .. Remove the battery to release the rectifier.

Remove the battery to release the rectifier.

 

12 .. Made a plate to mount the new 5 wire rec/reg in the original reg position so the fins didn’t block the airbox inlet. Would have welded tabs directly to the battery box but had run out of wire for the MIG. The 3 screws with nuts create an air space under the rec/reg for cooling and better air flow to the filter-box. Packed with rubber bushes they dont rub against the underside of the rec/reg.

Made a plate to mount the new 5 wire rec/reg in the original reg position so the fins didn’t block the airbox inlet. Would have welded tabs directly to the battery box but had run out of wire for the MIG. The 3 screws with nuts create an air space under the rec/reg for cooling and better air flow to the filter-box. Packed with rubber bushes they dont rub against the underside of the rec/reg.

 

13 .. Fits snug between the tool box and filter-box. Cables separated, resheathed and fitted with original connectors

Fits snug between the tool box and filter-box. Cables separated, resheathed and fitted with original connectors

 

14 .. Release the original connector blocks by inserting a small flat bladed screwdriver into the recess beside the pins. Simply push out.

Release the original connector blocks by inserting a small flat bladed screwdriver into the recess beside the pins. Simply push out.

 

15 .. Make sure the tangs are reset before reusing.

Make sure the tangs are reset before reusing.

 

16 .. Added a 20 Amp flat bladed fuse holder in the positive battery feed. Just for security. This wire is too long and will be reworked.

Added a 20 Amp flat bladed fuse holder in the positive battery feed. Just for security. This wire is too long and will be reworked.

 

The rec/reg, when mounted on the plate, interferes with the sidecover. Modified an old sidecover. Rattlecan-blacked it and it’s mate. Be a shame to mess up a good set of covers

Just got to put some kms on her now to road test before installing a 750 kit that’s been sitting on the shelf for a couple of years.

Had some charging issues in the beginning. Went through and checked the new wiring. Not quite sure what was wrong but the issues disappeared.

More than happy with this.

Update … almost killed my second rear tyre now – no problems – running sweet

Ant’s: This is a good product – once I installed it, 2.5 years ago, I have had no problems .. !!KOOL!!

XS650: Voltage Drop Troubleshooting Tips   Leave a comment

Was rooting around in some old technical stuff. Found this. Some basics tips for troubleshooting Voltage Drops. Mess around with XS650s for long and you will know all about these.

Voltage Drop Troubleshooting Tips

 

page 01

 

page 02

 

 

page 03

 

You will need at least one of these…

 

multimeter – volts ac/dc – ohms

 

Freaky shit? Need a tutorial? How to use a multimeter.

XS650: Permanent Magnet Alternator   Leave a comment

I don’t want to knock the original generating system. It has functioned for the last 40 odd years in one form or another. Designed to be in balance with the machine itself. And it has functioned. Mostly well.

These are Hitachi-no GM here-and have mostly given dependable service. But then 40 years ago I was a teenager. Pumping. Today I’m learning my physical limitations.

It has it’s shortfalls. Don’t you?

If you’ve ever been stranded, using an excited charging system, with a weakened battery or worn brushes you’re going to start thinking the sun has to be shining. Somewhere else. Don’t get me wrong. They are not Lucas. Thankfully. But you’re still stranded.

This topic has been thrashed by now. Over at the Garage, here and here or the Oz site or here.

I remember this discussion starting up some years ago. There is a long thread at the Garage if you want to sort through it. It’s kind of interesting seeing it all develop. Here in Germany this mod has been done for a very long time now. Getting hold of the parts required is not as cheap as it used to be.

This is basically a plug and ride mod. Will take a tech. novice with the parts and basic tools a morning to complete a points bike. A little longer for an electronic ign model.

 

1 .. TCI pickup in the black box 13.00 ... brushes are isolated ... earthed through the rec.reg ... if converting to PMA you will lose this and your original electronic ignition

TCI pickup in the black box 13.00 … brushes are isolated … earthed through the rec.reg … if converting to PMA you will lose this and your original electronic ignition

 

2 .. points models have this advance unit on the right hand end of the cam, points to the left

points models have this advance unit on the right hand end of the cam, points to the left

 

If your bike has a crank-based electronic ignition (TCI) you will need to swap this to a cam-based ignition (points, pamco…). This does introduce some timing errors associated with valve timing. Stretched cam chain, improperly dampening chain adjuster, cam lobe wear, valve wear, malfunctioning ATU etc will all directly affect cam-based ignition timing. But. Don’t worry. The points ignitions on all other XS650s are cam-based and they run just fine.

3 .. the complete ATU mechanism .. passes through the cam

the complete ATU mechanism .. passes through the cam

 

If swapping from crank (TCI) to cam-based ign you will need to source the ATU-as above-if using points or Pamco. This is the shaft that runs through the hollow cam and the sprung weight mechanism on the rhs. The points or Pamco fit on the lh end. Make sure there are bearings or bushes. A good time to upgrade your coils too.

There are several ways to do this.

  • Source an RD-RZ 250-350 LC/YPVS rotor and stator. ’83 on. (earlier LC-non YPVS have a lower output)

 

4 .. RD350LC or YPVS stator, rotor-not here, backing plate

RD350LC or YPVS stator, rotor-not here, backing plate

 

 

5 .. remove the pickup

remove the pickup

 

6 .. you only want these 3 white wires = 3 phase, the rest are not required

you only want these 3 white wires = 3 phase, the rest are not required

 

  • Pick up a Rectifier-Regulator. An original RD will directly plug and play. New is preferable.

 

7 .. mrriggs adaptor

mrriggs adaptor

 

8 .. Ascension Cycle Works ... pma adapter ... ebay

Ascension Cycle Works … pma adapter … ebay

 

  • Source a Mrriggs adaptor..ebay? Not so sure he is making them any more!! or Ascension Cycle Works … ebay
  • Get a stator only…103 x 42 x 20…mounts directly to the adaptor…endless lists in the links at the beginning
  • Find an RR from pretty much any late model high revving sports bike running a PMA. Some will have 5 wires, some 6, some 7.
  • The colour coding will differ with brand too. If  running without a battery, connect the voltage sensing wire, typically Black on Honda, Orange on Suzuki, and Brown on Yamaha and Kawasaki to the positive output wire. If running a battery connect after the ignition switch so it’s live only when the key is on.
  • Take care if ordering kits … some are only 2 phase … those with 3 white or yellow wires are 3 phase

Just found this  http://www.gofastforless.com/junk/Per-Mag-Alt-Instructions.pdf which deals with the topic fine.

 

9 .. electrolytic capacitor ... use the one with screw posts ... 25V 10000uF

electrolytic capacitor … use the one with screw posts … 25V 10000uF

 

You can run this batteryless using a capacitor…25V and 10K uF. I’ve done this for quite some time now with no problem, however I get a little nervous sometimes wrt reliability. I am about to add in a small gel battery. If my alternator stops charging my Pamco requires so little current I will still get home.

 

10 .. small gel battery

small gel battery

 

 

11 .. fitted, wiring laid

fitted, wiring laid

 

 

12 .. easily wired in ... with or without battery

easily wired in … with or without battery

 

 

13 .. RD-RZ basic data

83-85 RD-RZ basic data … later 86/87 have VCD-88/ND AC Generators with 13A output@5000rpm

 

As I say, apart from a slight risk running batteryless I like this. After adding a battery I will feel good.

It’s a bit lighter, allowing slightly freer revving. For track purposes however a total loss system makes things even easier.

One more point here. These girls are starting to show their age a little, mostly gracefully. Personally I distrust the complete electrical system and usually take this chance to rip the lot out. I then fabricate my own simplified wiring. Doesn’t take long, reduces weight, makes space and you know what you’ve got.

Enjoy.